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Mar 2, 2021

On this week’s podcast, we kick off a series of conversations about the meanings and motivations that underlie why we ride. Our first guest is two-time Olympian (wind surfing), former Pro cyclist, Pro team founder, Sport Psychologist, friend, and Ridership member Ted Huang. Together Ted and I explored collaborative vs. coercive team dynamics, the power of vulnerability in leadership, intrinsic vs. extrinsic motivation, perfectionism and the inner critic, flow states, mindfulness, inclusion and belonging, and other aspects of the riding experience that extend and indeed originate well beyond the bike.

The goal of these episodes is to spark conversation that is of value to the community and its members, and we hope you’ll join us over at the The Ridership forum (sign up at with your ideas, questions, and feedback.

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Ted Huang - Episode Transcription 

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the gravel ride podcast. I'm Randall Jacobs, and this is the first in a series of episodes that Craig has graciously invited me to host in which i'll be bringing on guests to unpack the meaning and motivations that underlie why we ride.

[00:00:12]Like Craig's episodes and our joint In The Dirt series, these episodes will simply appear in your feed as they're produced.

[00:00:18] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:00:18] Before we get started. I'd just like to encourage anyone who enjoys the podcast to support Craig in his work by going to and making a donation.

[00:00:28]My first guest is Ted Huang.  Ted is a two time Olympian in the sport of wind surfing, a former cat one road racer who competed in professional races here in the U S,  a co- founder of two professional teams, one men's and one women's, and finally he is a sports psychologist who helps elite and amateur athletes alike achieve both their performance goals and a more balanced life through cycling. And with that, let's get started.

[00:00:53] Ted Huang, welcome to the podcast. So glad to have you on. 

[00:00:57] Ted Huang: [00:00:57] Thank you. 

[00:00:58]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:00:58] So this is the first [00:01:00] in a series of conversations here on the pod, talking about this concept of ridership. This concept is pretty broad in the sense, you and I have discussed before around, fellowship and friendship and the bicycle is a vehicle for connection and what does this experience mean in a deeper sense? So I'm really excited to explore this with you. If you could give the audience a quick sense of your background, where you come from and what you do now? 

[00:01:23]Ted Huang: [00:01:23] I was born in the Bay area, Sunnyvale native, and I wasn't really into team sports so much when I was younger, I had a couple of bad experiences and ended up falling into the sport called windsurfing some of you may have heard of, it's basically a surfboard with the sales stuck on top that you hang on to and then go cruise to different places. So it's really the ultimate exploration machine on the water.

[00:01:49] And I did that starting the age of 11. Very supportive parents started competing, ended up going to two Olympics in wind surfing and then [00:02:00] also loved the sport of cycling and actually went into road racing.  I wanted to see how far I could take that sport just for fun cause I wanted to try something more aerobicly challenging and little did I know road cycling actually was much more of a team sport and help me develop my sense of belonging to something. So I was part of a team really took to the teammates, actually co-founded two professional cycling teams of men's and women's teams, and did that for a number of years.

[00:02:33] And it just made me realize this whole power of many trumps the power of one in terms of satisfaction and reward. So that really helped me find my way to what I'm doing today, which is a mental performance coach. Went back, got my degree in sports psychology, and now trying to help people become the best versions of themselves, or be more comfortable in their own skins.

[00:02:58]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:02:58] That resonates [00:03:00] granted I didn't go quite as far in my professional athletics career. I was a pack fodder pro cross country racer.

[00:03:06]Ted Huang: [00:03:06] That's not what I hear, but yeah.

[00:03:07]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:03:07] I was a decent local competitor at one point.

[00:03:10]And at this point my relationship to the bike has shifted a lot and I really want to explore what is the deeper meaning of this experience? So you talked about connection, for example, and in fact, I recall very fondly being on a group ride and meeting you and we had a brief conversation and it was less the conversation itself than the feeling of here's somebody who's really kind who wants to include everyone in the ride experience .  So when we started this off, it was very natural to reach out.

[00:03:35] Ted Huang: [00:03:35] Likewise, when I first met you, it was like this very positive and curious person who was so impassioned by not just cycling. Now it all seems aligned, that you wanted to share the same sense of community with your cycling experience to others, and maybe that's part of your thesis bikes vision is, creating that sense of community with other people. 

[00:03:59] [00:04:00]To me it doesn't matter why we ride, how fast we ride, how slow we ride. It's just that we get out there. And that's the most important thing, because I don't know how many times people like, Oh, I don't want to ride with you. You're gonna be too fast or whatever. I'll be too slow . It doesn't really matter. Don't apologize for anything about your speed or your technique, because I'll be the first one to say, I suck at mountain biking, my technical skills are horrible. But I still enjoy it for the same reasons and you're right. It takes time and self-belief and confidence to get past that. I still have trouble, that lack of confidence and things you don't know how to do, but that's the whole neat thing about cycling is there's no shortage of people out there to help you who want to help you. And going back to community, that would probably be the common theme here is that helps build that sense because we all want each other to have fun. At least the riders I want to ride with are like that. 

[00:04:52]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:04:52] Yeah, I definitely recall when I was racing particularly within the roadie scene to a lesser extent, the mountain bike scene have a [00:05:00] really strong competitive element. And there was almost on the one hand a masochistic need to suffer and a glorification of suffering. And I can suffer more than you and somehow that's a source of worth.

[00:05:11] And then also I'm going to punish the other riders. I'm going to rip your legs off. I'm going to make your lungs burn and I think it feeds a baser instinct than the reasons I ride and the types of riders I'm attracted to now why they ride and the opportunity for riding and the bicycle itself to be a vehicle for connection . So I'm curious tell me about the transition for you from a wind surfing to riding on a team. What age? Was there a lot of overlap? Was the bike tool for training.

[00:05:41]Ted Huang: [00:05:41] So my high school graduation present was a 1988 Bianchi Superleggera Columbus SLSB tubing, beautiful bike. I bought it from a ski shop and I loved riding it, but it was just a cross-training tool and I just [00:06:00] liked the aerobic nature kind of allowed me to get into that quote unquote zone more quickly than having to drive 45 minutes, unpack your wind surfer, build it up. So basically, it's just a much more efficient way to get that. So I really took to it, but transitioning from the wind surfing, it was just so gear oriented I would be going around the world, carrying the 12 and a half foot long Wind Surfer for, with the 16 and a half foot mast show up to every airline counter, and you think bicycles are hard to transport. I'm showing up there and I'm like, "Hey, my name's Ted. I'm part of this team would you mind the excess baggage fees?". It was like basically a panic attack before every trip, because Airline desk people would be shaking their heads as I'm walking to the desk with all this stuff, in luggage carts and it was just stressful.

[00:06:48] So once I was done with my wind surfing career after the 2000 Olympics I was at the time cross training with cycling and taking a step back. I will say that in 2000 I [00:07:00] telecommuted, full-time from Sydney, Australia training for the Sydney Olympics and the only new friends I made were from the cycling and triathlon community that year.

[00:07:11] Cause I was cross training in their local equivalent of central park, New York, but Centennial park in Sydney, and I did some of the group training rides and people were so nice. So that helped build my good vibe feeling towards cycling. So when I was done with the Sydney Olympics, I literally  stopped windsurfing, cold Turkey and  decided I would immerse myself in cycling. And there happened to be this bike race in San Francisco that went up the streets of San Francisco, the really hilly ones, and Lance Armstrong came and they had all the European teams came. So it was quite a big event. So that was my goal was to get in there, but.

[00:07:48]But really the only way to get in there with it to somehow turn your team professional. So I think I joked with the earlier, my dream was to get the free bike. I had to start my own pro team to get the free bike, so the hard way [00:08:00] getting to that point. But in the process, I just became so fascinated with human behavior, so that was also my degree at Stanford in college, but just the human behavioral component and having all these just. So talented in the lab teammates who couldn't quite put it together on the race course, whereas you'd have other less talented, physiologically speaking, cyclists who were just spot on, they could just do what you told them to do very consistent.

[00:08:32] And it was all in the attitude all in the mind. But with the team , you could leverage each other's strengths and weaknesses and actually build a better team. It almost didn't matter. It's almost like a puzzle. You could just put together the different pieces and if you lead them correctly, then you have a pretty successful team.

[00:08:51]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:08:51] So what do you see as the critical elements of healthy team dynamics? 

[00:08:55]Ted Huang: [00:08:55] I think leadership by example is extremely important. [00:09:00] I also think that the team leader needs to be very open and transparent with other teammates on his own strengths and weaknesses.

[00:09:11]I really gained the most from the one year we had Chris Horner on our team and why he was such an effective leader is he would figure out all of our strengths and weaknesses and then he would maximize our strengths. So he'd be like, " Ted, you're not really a climber, so get me to the bottom of the Hill and you're done". So he would set these little milestones for me that were very incremental or for teammates. So what was incredibly special is, he harnessed our strengths and made us feel good about them and let us essentially celebrate them without tearing us down, he wouldn't tell us, "just keep pulling at the front". He would give us very specific instructions. We want to keep the break at 30 seconds. Don't pull too hard. He was very specific. And because he gave these incremental milestones to each of us, it empowered us to really step up in that [00:10:00] to me was important. And also our team director for the women, Karen Brehms, she treated everyone with respect and everyone fairly and the same. 

[00:10:08]Granted, I was the quote unquote team owner dating one of the women on the team. So I got extra " don't mess with my team dynamic" direction from Karen. It was very clear she wanted to preserve a team that felt equitable amongst its ranks. So there was really almost no room for backroom talk or talking behind people's backs.

[00:10:30] Everything was open. And I don't know how many of the women came back and told Karen that was the best team experience they've ever had because of the team dynamic she helped create. So those are parts of what I think are important to creating a successful team environment, but also doing what you say you're going to do for the management level to we paid our riders on time.

[00:10:50] We had the pro-team, we were. Oh, it's try to be very organized. And what was really interesting was when the year we had Chris Horner, we had a first time director, [00:11:00] super smart guy, but never directed a team before. So he just let Chris essentially handle the rains and you just help facilitate.

[00:11:07] So knowing your strengths and your weaknesses and being willing to learn is also another important component of a team dynamic that will create a successful path. And also specific goals. Of course we can't underestimate the power of goal setting and the aspirational goal.

[00:11:25] Our goal as the men's team was " we want to see if we can win the San Francisco grand Prix, our budget was missing two zeros compared to every other team and they're race so it was like, How is this going to work, but we just plugged away at it and we acted as professionally as we could.

[00:11:42]We had team selections for the race . And Chris Horner on the day asked Charles Dion, how are you feeling? I was pretty sure Chris could have won the race, but Charles who'd won the first edition of the race in 2001 said, "I'm feeling really good". So Chris is okay, I'm writing for you.

[00:11:58] So literally [00:12:00] this being so clear in factual and then Charles, knowing he has someone like Chris riding for him stepped up as well as us as the working stiff team stepped up too. And we're able to fill in the gaps. 

[00:12:14]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:12:14] I'm hearing themes that I find common in any sort of healthy community or even friendship, dynamic ones of  an ability to acknowledge one's limitations, but also one's strengths and the strengths and limitations of those around you and discuss it in a very open and vulnerable way.

[00:12:29]I'm going to follow up on the things that I said I'll do and this reframing of leadership, I think that in our culture, a common sense of leadership is the person being in charge.

[00:12:40] And that is a coercive form of leadership. That's something taken versus a leadership that is given due to the merits. We all lead in different ways in a healthy team. How talk to me more about like your experience within the team dynamic and how that evolved over time, what you learned.

[00:12:57]Ted Huang: [00:12:57] So what's interesting to me. I want to go back actually [00:13:00] really quickly, the first comment about the roadie- type competitive attitude. So I came into cycling is just like a new hobby. I had no intention of really being that serious. My goal is to become a Cat 1 and I did that. So I didn't really have another goal after that , I never had a five-year plan, so that's maybe a problem, but also helped shape who I am today. So I just fell into things

[00:13:25] an accidental pro? 

[00:13:27] Yeah, totally. Because I never was paid to ride a bike, so I'm not really professional. I feel if you make your livelihood, riding a bike, then you're professional, but I never did that. I ran a team it was back in the day when you had to be a cat 1 to get the pro license.

[00:13:43] So at least it was legitimate in terms of that was the path. But after that you could be cat five and just buy the pro-license, but I digress. So I had more perspective coming from a different sport and I was just amazed at how competitive people would [00:14:00] get, and it almost took the fun out of it.

[00:14:03]They were so aggro and so intense. That's the problem we have is our identities, whether it's in a recreational cyclist or competitive cyclist, that can be wrapped up in how you do on the bike, whether it's in a competition or not. So I was just amazed at that intensity.

[00:14:20]And I reframe the situation and tried to just be more light-hearted about it. But. What helps diffuse that is when you have a leader come in, who's , like you said, vulnerable and open and able to take criticism and doesn't necessarily say he has all the answers. He has his opinions or her opinions, but they're just speaking from the heart.

[00:14:46] And that to me really resonated in a way to help wade through all the personality, differences and ego differences and helps diffuse those issues. But I want go back to that whole [00:15:00] concept of effective leadership in a very uncertain environment.

[00:15:06]When you have lots of uncertainty in the race dynamics, you have to figure out the controllables.  So a effective team leader focuses on those controllables to help empower his or her teammates to feel like they have control of those things, opposed to feeling overwhelmed.

[00:15:25] So my wife's leadership skills , she was a team leader of the Webcore women's professional team, you have to be empowering of your teammates. You had to be an example, essentially a role model. And then you had to show that you really cared about your teammates too. In an authentic way. Not just use them and abuse them and spin off the back , because they're going to be there for you day after day. As a leader, you want to make your teammates want to ride for you in a way that's not putting too much pressure on the teammates. It's almost like you give no room [00:16:00] for pressure to build up.

[00:16:01] This is the job we have in front of us. And if you  set these incremental goals that I'll help you set for yourself Ted pulled to this juncture in the race, or, okay. Is a climber. We're saving you for the climb to help me on the climb or you need to get me within 30 seconds of the break up the road and I'll do the rest.

[00:16:18] Just very clear steps then suddenly it opens up what's possible versus all the things conspiring against you. 

[00:16:25]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:16:25] You bring up a bunch of themes that I think are great to explore as a way of contrasting different modalities in which some definition of success can be achieved. Cause you hear about teams that have a power or fear based structure and they may be quite successful in some sense. Though, you don't have to question "what are we ultimately hoping to achieve and why is that our motivation?"  The contrast between a power- based team dynamic and an empowerment based team dynamic is something that I'm hearing as you're expressing how you went [00:17:00] about things. Why do you think more power and coercion based dynamics also have some success and how do you contrast the two modalities?

[00:17:10]Ted Huang: [00:17:10] I think that's a very interesting question. The minute you said power-based Philosophy for leading a team I thought, at the time when we had our team, the health net team, at least my impression of them, was a very, ego driven, we're doing it this way, and it's all business, and it was unclear to me how much fun they were having, was like, "we have a job to do". But  it works when you have extremely dominant personalities that essentially are leading by example and give riders no room to think otherwise. And in my opinion, it's not as sustainable model.

[00:17:51] It works for specific goals. But you also have to have a pretty hardened personality. I don't want to say [00:18:00] that we were all soft, but we definitely were more sensitive than your quote unquote real professional riders that were actually on the circuit full-time and that was their livelihood. When you have less alternatives, you can take that type of Leadership style. I don't think you necessarily have to like it, but there's different ways that work. 

[00:18:21] And also, let's say the domestics or the other riders see that they care actually about you or care about the success of the team, that can feed on itself.  I work with kids and their high school coaches, right now it's all about positive psychology and positive reinforcement, which I totally agree with. I think that's the best way to coach kids. But there are still what I call it old-school coaches out there that they're just the hard drivers. They yell at their kids , but they yell at them equally, meaning, they'll tell them to harden the F up and all this stuff. And a lot of the parents seem completely on board with that because [00:19:00] they recognize that these coaches are putting their heart and soul into it. So they are so invested in it that they think they have the best interest of the kids at heart. That makes sense. 

[00:19:10] So it helps them not justify the behavior, but if it were coached that seemed like they were just malicious, then that would be a difference. So I think that makes a difference. It is building community, even that type of environment can build a community, Different types of community, I would say less healthy, less sustainable.

[00:19:32] If these leaders are showing that they care about the program, care about the writers so that, they're really  trying to achieve the goals are their core values .  

[00:19:41]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:19:41] Craig and I talked in our last podcast together about our own motivations for getting into the sport and I can  identify.

[00:19:49]Some unhealthy egoic motivations for me wanting to check the box of having had a pro license. I was never making a living at it, and so by your definition, which I fully [00:20:00] agree with, I was not a professional. I was just good enough to ride with the pros and to see how much stronger they were.

[00:20:06]And to be able to sit with that. But I feel if even if the goal of winning the race is achieved what is the ultimate motivation behind that. So getting back to identity, at the time, I had several things that were propping up in identity. I had just gotten my pro license. I had won a couple races. I was going to a fancy grad school. And, I had other aspects that were like, "this is why I am valuable".  I think that speaks to a much deeper conversation about how we're raised, how our culture treats us to get our worth externally.

[00:20:40]And with the lens that I have now, when I think about team dynamics that are more power-based and more egoic, there would seem to be some underlying wound you're trying to heal by doing the things that get you the external validation that you're not able to generate internally because you maybe didn't get it in childhood from your primary [00:21:00] caregiver. No fault of bears because they're the children of parents as well. So I'm curious to tug at the loose thread of this sweater and see what we dig up. 

[00:21:09]Ted Huang: [00:21:09] So in sports psychology, or just psychology in general, you have the extrinsically motivated athlete or the intrinsically motivated athlete, and studies have shown that if your motivation comes from within, like self-improvement, "how far can I take this sport?", "how much can I improve?", That's healthier in the long run, whereas external motivators, like "I want to win this race" there's a lot of variables that you can't control, a lot of uncontrollables, or "I want to beat this person", which is an external motivator, that's also helpful for those little carrots that need along the way,  you need both, and most top athletes have both, but in the end it's better to be leaning toward the more internally motivated or intrinsically motivated person.

[00:21:53] So I have what I call that chip on the shoulder motivation, which is external experiences, motivations that a lot of [00:22:00] athletes who maybe feel either disadvantaged or didn't have everything line up for them may have a chip on their shoulder. Maybe it's the press harshing on them for some reason.

[00:22:11] And then any chip on the shoulder can really help drive an athlete big time. If you're spending a lot of your time or the majority of your time doing something it's logical, that your identity would be wrapped up in that.  And you're getting rewarded with little endorphin and dopamine hits whenever you do well. That just makes you feel better. So it just feels itself and it's a vicious cycle. And then of course, when it's time to retire, it's like the rug got yanked out from under you then what do you do? 

[00:22:43]Quick aside.  My wife had her medical career. She was working full time when she was training for the Olympics.

[00:22:48] So she always had her medical career, so she had no problem transitioning after she did her Olympic thing. It was like, boom. That's not what defines me, it's a medical thing. And that was, I think, [00:23:00] instrumental in her just being able to pivot just like that. I had problems switching, even though I was not quite as full time as some athletes, but my identity was wrapped up in the sport even became wrapped up in the cycling. And to some degree, it still is in terms of, this vicious cycle. "I want to stay fit to prove myself", but for what? Like we talked about, you have a goal, you accomplish the goal, and then what? 

[00:23:25] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:23:25] The dog that caught the car.

[00:23:27] Ted Huang: [00:23:27] And then what? So I had a German training partner in windsurfing in '96, and he was  significantly better than I was. He was European champion. He wanted to win the Olympics 96. He didn't. He was so driven, and we were training partners, and we were one place apart at the Olympics, and he was just crushed.

[00:23:47] But then he talked to me afterwards and told me, Ted, I can't believe it. You are so right. I didn't enjoy the process enough. I was so fixated on this goal. That I could have [00:24:00] enjoyed the path so much more. Instead, I was just fixated on the result. And now that period of life is behind me. And now I got to go to work and I'm leading a mundane life now, and my glory days were behind me, opposed to  soaking up every bit of each day along the way. And that really resonated with me in that. Wow. He finally gained perspective that it's not all about the Holy grail of the wet metal, that the media only focuses on the podium finishers at the Olympics.

[00:24:28] And it really is about the experience. And then interestingly my wife at the Olympics, you get postcards from the local kids at the different Olympics. Like they write a little postcard and she had a patient come in and read one of the postcards. And it was France, it was a French kid who wrote it and the translation said "the best among us", the English translation of this French phrases. And she said that's odd. That's not the real translation. The translation is "the [00:25:00] best within us".  So that's like huge difference. So the English translation of one of the Olympic mottoes is twisted.

[00:25:10]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:25:10] It's very American. 

[00:25:12]Ted Huang: [00:25:12] Exactly. Opposed to the best within us. And so that really struck a chord because it's exactly how we're brought up thinking of Olympians, is it's all about beating them.

[00:25:22]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:25:22] There's a better than worse than .

[00:25:24] Ted Huang: [00:25:24] Yeah. opposed to striving to be the best that you can be.

[00:25:27] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:25:27] That really captures the difference between a healthy and an unhealthy relationship to the sport. Are you doing it to be the best amongst us? Are you doing it to be the best version of yourself as part of a broader program of being a complete person?


[00:25:42] Ted Huang: [00:25:42] Yeah. And tying this back to the leadership component, that's what good leaders do. They don't make you feel bad because you didn't perform up to the par of your teammate who might be more physiologically, talented on that day . It was like, you got the best out of yourself.

[00:25:58] So these leaders, [00:26:00] whether it would be Christine or Chris, would compliment you on how well you did among your own strength. Like you did the best you could that's good enough, as opposed to comparing you to a teammate or to another team. And then another small thing I want to share as an interesting tip is we talk about perfectionism, right?

[00:26:18] And perfectionistic tendencies are unhealthy. Would you agree with that? 

[00:26:23]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:26:23] I think they tie into broader issues of low self-esteem. So you have to a project some perfect version of yourself, and it keeps us from getting started.

[00:26:33] Ted Huang: [00:26:33] At it does, it's fear of failure. You don't want to. Fail at something perhaps too. 

[00:26:37]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:26:37] I can say that this is the first episode of this series for the podcast that I'm doing. And I've sat on this idea for quite some time. And it was my perfectionist tendencies and lack of a feeling of security, a feeling that I could pull it off, that put off this thing that I needed to do for so long. So I can see that reflected in any number of different situations in my life. And as I observe other people with this lens, so [00:27:00] let's absolutely continue exploring this.

[00:27:03] Ted Huang: [00:27:03] Yeah. I love that you share that quote unquote vulnerability, because that's like to me. So cool that you recognize that and you just chose to go forward and do it. And I'm actually honored that you picked me as your first interviewee or your conversational partner in this.

[00:27:22]I'm hoping our conversation will inspire and allow people to introspective and more reflect on why we ride our bikes and what it can do for us versus having too many extrinsic perfectionistic parts that we tend towards.

[00:27:36]So we're going to pull on that thread a little bit more on the perfectionism piece. I recognize I'm in that boat with you where I'm always looking for external reinforcement. 

[00:27:45] Affirmation essentially.

[00:27:47]Affirmation. I get down on myself when I don't perform. Like I think I should. And so sometimes I have trouble moving past mistakes. And I remember asking my wife, Christine, " are you a perfectionist?" And [00:28:00] she said quite emphatically, "no, I'm not a perfectionist" because what I recognize is I'll make mistakes, but then I know they're just mistakes.

[00:28:09] I'll just learn from them and just move on. How do you do that? 

[00:28:11]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:28:11] Again, from this lens I've gained from doing a lot of difficult introspection, especially in recent months, I see that in our culture, vulnerability is not a norm. And part of vulnerability is an acceptance of one's own limitations and a feeling of being worthy of acceptance from other as one actually is as opposed to some idealized self that you project out.

[00:28:35]Social media is in a way like a crescendo of this narcissistic tendency to want to project some idealized self, and then our relationships are built on this projection versus who we really are. And I find that vulnerability is not weakness. It is a superpower because now you have resilient friendships and relationships, and you talked about team dynamics, same sort of thing.

[00:29:01] [00:29:00] Ted Huang: [00:29:01] Yeah, that term projection. When working with kids, that's a huge issue even if it's only implicitly part of the culture in kid's sports, or kids academics , you're always supposed to be striving for more and we don't emphasize celebrating the small victories along the way. So I think in some sense, I don't want to say there's a cure for perfectionism, but if you allow yourself to celebrate the smaller wins along the way, you're not settling for less.

[00:29:35] Which a lot of the kids I talk to I can sense. What they're feeling is that they, celebrate too much. Maybe their parents will say, Oh, you still haven't hit your goal yet, but that's going to help them have a healthier attitude towards what they've accomplished. Because I think at least in the Bay area, I can only speak for the Bay area having grown up here, there is this underlying permeating [00:30:00] pressure cooker environment amongst kids and adults to strive, because, you're seeing thousands of Teslas driving around you and you start judging other people attitudes, their, life livelihood, et cetera.

[00:30:15] And that I think is also unhealthy. And I think that's also feeding on this very oppressive atmosphere that I think is the unhealthy part of Silicon Valley . And if we can keep ourselves more curious and open-minded whether it's through mindfulness or meditation or healthy community I think we can tame those perfectionistic tendencies, but we have so many things conspiring against that healthy outlook. I think you and I both know that's one of the things we're trying to grapple with is can cycling, how does that help, steer us into more healthy life balance or [00:31:00] mental balance. 

[00:31:01] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:31:01] It very much ties into the motivation for starting this series. What is a life well lived? What is the deeper or meaning and purpose? What is it that this particular activity serves? 

[00:31:11]For me, the bike was my on ramp to mindfulness and meditation. I didn't know it at the time. At the time  I started riding, it was  "here's something that I'm good at". I had certain advantages in terms of my physiology. And I get rewarded  cause I'm good at it.

[00:31:27] So it was chasing that. And I was on a cycling team at Northeastern. And it was, the seeking of belonging.  If I look back and think about my motivation, it wasn't to win races or even the right experience itself. It was that feeling of belonging. That was the motivation. And now, recognizing that I don't really have any desire to compete.

[00:31:48] In fact, my desire for fitness is  dictated by  wanting to be able to have the experiences I want to have with the people I want to have them with. And that is my motivation. 

[00:31:57] Ted Huang: [00:31:57] I feel the same way. my only [00:32:00] goal was to become a cat one way back in the early nineties and happened a long time ago , and then it just became that sense of belonging and being, what the team goal, right?

[00:32:10]The personal goals are mixed in there as well, but it was that sense of belonging. And that's why I so gravitated and towards cycling and cut the windsurfing cold Turkey. Cause, to me that was a bit of a more individual loner sport because you can't really socialize when you're going like 30 miles an hour on the water.

[00:32:26]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:32:26] Have you gone back to it at all? Do you still wind surf? 

[00:32:29]Ted Huang: [00:32:29] Very occasionally I'll just see a board or there's like a little race somewhere in Tahoe and I'll jump in and be sore for the next week. Cause I, have muscle memory, but then I have no muscles, so I can fake it for a little bit, but No. 

[00:32:43] I also like doing things with my wife, so I  want to mention briefly we haven't written our tandem in months until yesterday. And it was an incredibly spectacular day. And there was this whole just when you're in sync, can we talk, I can talk about the zone with you and just [00:33:00] where it's, we weren't like this the whole time but it helped me become more intentional in how I pedaled the bike even cause you're, so you're connected right.

[00:33:08] With the with your front and Stoker and the captain, you're connected through the belt. And when everything's in sync, there's nothing like that. We talked about belonging, it just felt more connected with the other individual in more ways than one, when you're in sync and the peddling styles, Similar. It just, it was just in the beautiful scenery that, to me, it was like not in the Piff money, but it was just one of those moments where it's wow, this is what cycling is all about, where you're just cruising. And we both like speed. And so it's, in tandem you got 300 pounds, it was just amazing to feel that and it was like our own little community.

[00:33:46] And so we didn't really need anyone else around us, but just the two of us.  

[00:33:51] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:33:51] It sounds very intimate, like a feeling of completeness in the moment fully present flow state 

[00:33:56]Ted Huang: [00:33:56] Yeah, it was, and I think that's [00:34:00] also the feeling I get with some of these group rides where we're all on the same wavelength clicking.

[00:34:05]And that's what I feel is the neat part about riding is you can be on that same wavelength for different reasons, but there is a certain fundamental appreciation of not just the sport, but of each other, all enjoying it together.

[00:34:19]I dunno if you've heard of Deci and Ryan's self-determination theory. So self-determination is a theory of human motivation that looks at our fundamental tendency toward growth, and that we have three core needs and those needs are autonomy, competence, and relatedness.

[00:34:41] So when you describe elements of cycling, and when I think of elements of the why we ride, autonomy. We got that autonomy of riding the bike , we have control over where we go and who we ride with and you have that competence. You have to have some level of skill.

[00:34:58] So we want to be fit [00:35:00] enough to do the rides we want to do, with the people we want to ride with and feel competent. And then of course there's a really important piece of being connected and  being in it together, the relatedness or human connection.

[00:35:11] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:35:11] When I think about how racing and big events have shifted in recent years, there's been a tendency away from, crits and road races towards gravel events, and you can go and get the experience that you want, and if you want to race you race, and if you want to just ride and, end up with different groups along the ride, you tend to pack up and then end up as an individual on some of the single track you can have that experience too. And maybe even you don't even know what experience you're ready for in a given day. 

[00:35:38] So the last thing I did Lost and found in the Sierras. I get anxious before any sort of events. I was like, I don't want to raise this today. I don't feel great, and ended up riding and as the day progressed feeling pretty strong and I ended up racing. And both outcomes would have been fine. And I met a lot of lovely people along the way. Some of whom I'm still in touch with. And this idea of the best of [00:36:00] the compete to complete M.S. Ride sort of events and then a full-on competitive race where everyone is able to get the thing that they want and the thing that they need. And at the end, not have this sense of Oh, I was up at the front, I'm better than you, but Hey, how was your ride? Oh, it didn't you like that section. This shared experience.

[00:36:19] Ted Huang: [00:36:19] And so I have a question for you. Did you, at any point in that experience, feel like had any FOMO fear of missing out because you weren't at the pointy end? 

[00:36:28]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:36:28] In that case my, my identity is very much not tied into my fitness at this point, which is a good thing is I'm not very fit these days.

[00:36:36]But for that event, I had  registered for  the intermediate distance and, the second half I really I was feeling good and I was feeling like I wanted to go deep and I just buried myself. For the second half of the event and in a way that I hadn't in quite some time, it actually was very invigorating to realize, Oh, my body can still do this. And it feels really good. I ended up winning my [00:37:00] category at that particular event. But it, even that was a nice thing to have happened, so the best of the rest in my particular age bracket. But as far as missing out on being at the front. No, not at all. I got exactly the race I wanted. I went hard. I chased wheels. I pulled away when I wanted to. I dealt with the voices inside my head saying  "just stop, just pull over for a while, just rest, just let off.

[00:37:23]And, I sat with that and pushed through. So yeah, not at all.  It was a great weekend. 

[00:37:30]Ted Huang: [00:37:30] I love that because I feel like you were able to not have that former bike racer identity cloud, the purity of that experience. I have that problem is what I'm saying is sometimes, Oh, my former self could have done this, making those comparisons, which I think are sometimes unhealthy, but you were able to pivot to this new experience of actually smelling the roses along the way,  enjoying the experience, opposed to it's all about that [00:38:00] outcome.

[00:38:00]And just striving, to be the fastest when you're actually enjoying the experience during the race. 

[00:38:08] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:38:08] Now I'm curious, you mentioned that you did an undergraduate at Stanford. 

[00:38:12] Ted Huang: [00:38:12] Yeah, it was in organizational behavior. 

[00:38:14] It's under sociology, but you take a lot of courses in the biz school. And it's about organizational dynamics, how organizations make decisions, and what's interesting to me is that my favorite theory of course, was one of the simpler ones called the garbage can theory by James Marciano also happened to be my advisor.

[00:38:32] And there's all these organizational theories, highfalutin theories that consultants and companies use to justify their decisions. But honestly, at the top, It's a garbage can theory, words, all these inputs that come in and literally outcomes a decision. And it's usually based on the CEO's instinct or in other words, they take everything in and they don't use some theory to devise their decisions.

[00:38:56] It's actually based on all their experiences that they've [00:39:00] taken in. And then outcomes. The decision 

[00:39:04]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:39:04] you mean it's not a purely linear, logical, scientific sort of the process? 

[00:39:10] Ted Huang: [00:39:10] Yeah  I Appreciated that because okay, so it's like they have to own that type of means to justify their decision making.

[00:39:17] So if it falls in some model, that's great, but it's not always like that. That's not to say that all decisions are like that, but oftentimes it's just gut instinct and I, and I witnessed this firsthand, when I was working for the company, that was the title sponsor of the web core team. The Webcore CEO at the time , he used a lot of his business instincts to make decisions such as, Oh, I'm sponsoring the King of the mountain to Fillmore street.

[00:39:41] So I'm paying X number of dollars. I want my club team in the race and, the organized was being desperate to get money. Said. Okay. And then after the fact like, Oh shit, we're only supposed to let pro teams in this race, what are we going to do? So we became us national team members for a single day.

[00:39:58] We actually wore stars and [00:40:00] stripes jerseys. And we were literally the laughingstock of the Peloton could, they're calling us the masters national team because 

[00:40:07] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:40:07] that's great. 

[00:40:08] Ted Huang: [00:40:08] We're not national contracts. That was pretty. That was pretty funny, actually. 

[00:40:12] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:40:12] And then that was the one that you won that your team won?

[00:40:14]Ted Huang: [00:40:14] No. That was one of the back East, but this was one of the editions to the San Francisco grand Prix, the one that goes up Fillmore street and so forth. 

[00:40:22]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:40:22] The word rationalization popped up in my head, as you were talking about how sometimes we will we'll think about making a decision based on logic and evidence and so on.

[00:40:31] But at the end of the day, there's some underlying feeling and we find a narrative that aligns with that feeling. I used to disparage this sort of decision-making, but now I can see how there is something deeper than pure logic. There's a feeling that taps into something that for me was off limits for a very long time.

[00:40:51] I was a very logical person. I was a very scientific person, physics nerd, math nerd. And not in touch with my feelings, nevermind other people's [00:41:00] and it's very limiting in terms of how it drives decisions that in turn reinforce how the decisions were come to. 

[00:41:07]Ted Huang: [00:41:07] I actually want to hear a little bit more about that because it sounds you felt like everything had to be logic based. 

[00:41:14] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:41:14] Yeah so to be very personal for a moment. I grew up in a Catholic household and there was a certain version of, spirituality that was presented in Catholicism, this celestial dictator which I did not resonate with at all. And so it didn't feel right, and it was not okay for that to not feel right. And so I had to reject it quite strongly and I threw out the baby of spirituality and being in touch with my feelings, with the bath water of all the negative emotions associated with what felt like a very coercive and unaccepting set of dogmas in this community.

[00:41:50]It's only in recent years where I've gone back and revisited because that purely scientific mindset didn't really work. I have been on an entrepreneurial [00:42:00] path for some time, and I thought that was going to satisfy this need and it didn't. I thought that's being a bike racer and achieving certain things would satisfy this need that I was chasing. And it didn't. I thought that going to a fancy grad school would satisfy but it didn't. And at the end of the day, I had to go back and say, okay, there are certain things that are true  that I can't get to through using the tools of science and looking externally. They're actually things I have to go inside and tap into my feelings in order to access those truths.  What works for me, what decisions should be made in my personal life with something of consequence, what do I spend my time doing?

[00:42:39]Ted Huang: [00:42:39] The thing is, we're made up of the sum of all of our experiences. I would argue that it's extra challenging to introspect without external data points or external experiences, but at the same time, those external experiences, you get knocked off whatever internal path of self-reflection sometimes if you [00:43:00] have a negative experience externally here, cause it causes judgment. Cause  all of our  learnings about meditation, it's all about non-judgment.

[00:43:09]And so your experiences naturally, cause that. so, I think that how you self reflect it's extremely important. And so the work that you're doing and actually having conversations with people like me and others is extremely important in helping you gain more and more perspectives so that you yourself can sort through all these different stimuli that you're getting and then find your own path.

[00:43:39] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:43:39] Ties into the power of community and the super power of vulnerability. So if you can create a dynamic, whether it be in a team or a community or a family system , where you can show up as your authentic self and express the feelings that you're having and have the vocabulary around it and have the safe container for it.

[00:43:56]And for me, I had to learn that later on. Podcasts where I've [00:44:00] seen this behavior modeled. Or a certain friends that had a particular toolkit. You mentioned judgments and I love there's this tool that I have found really powerful, which is. Every time I judge, I say, okay, how is that a projection? And how is that projection a useful mirror on myself as to what within me hasn't been accepted. Because you can't recognize something in others that you don't have in yourself. 

[00:44:25] Ted Huang: [00:44:25] So you what's funny, before you even said that I was thinking about myself and how I feel like I'm really getting better at not judging others, but I'm constantly judging myself harshly. And I'm still having significant issues with stopping that behavior sometimes. 

[00:44:43]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:44:43] And it's one of the beauties of being in community where it is safe to be vulnerable. I also have that, the internal critic, and I bet there's a lot of people in the audience who can relate to that because we're told to have this internal critic.

[00:44:56]Ted Huang: [00:44:56] Yeah. I have tools, they tell others to [00:45:00] think about when they're the internal critic is going off, if you were talking to your best friend about something they're going through, would you be saying to them what you're saying to yourself? Probably not. 

[00:45:11]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:45:11] And I love to think about where, the original wound happened in childhood. Cause a lot of this comes from childhood, and being able to say imagine seven year old Randall, or seven year old Ted. Or even four year old, Ted would you speak to him that way? What would you say to that version of yourself? And this gets into ideas of re-parenting, of going back and doing the parenting work to help one's inner child get through that developmental stage and learn the ability to self-esteem as opposed to other esteem. I feel like the conversation to be had is , "how do we support each other on this journey?"

[00:45:46]The bicycle is just an on-ramp for me to this practice . 

[00:45:50] Ted Huang: [00:45:50] And honestly, I need to mention this pretty special bike ride, which I don't know if you've come down for. But the Dave stall ride. 

[00:45:57] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:45:57] No.

[00:45:58] Ted Huang: [00:45:58] So right now there's a big love Fest [00:46:00] going on the day stall group.

[00:46:01] But Dave stall is a piano tuner is a friend of mine and I, an early days, early nineties, he would just have this conditioning ride on Wednesday. So that was the, he had off and it attracted all sorts of competent riders from aspiring Olympians, Derek Bouchard hall, Linda Jackson, all these, early riders Karen Brams and then, later on he retired from leading it.

[00:46:25] And so Catherine Curie, a good friend of mine started leading this ride and just develop this community. Cause anyone could show up, you leave your attitude at the door was not stipulated. It was just everyone lead by example. So all the PR for current or former pros who did the ride, it was just, we're here to enjoy the bike, here to enjoy the community.

[00:46:47]And just the comradery of being able to be out in the outdoors. And it really epitomizes what you're talking about and all the virtuous parts of riding a bike was what happens on this, ride of course    there's [00:47:00] some egos, but most of the time it's just checked at the door because the current pros are very careful to be inclusive.

[00:47:06]Maybe you go harder on the climb, but it means nothing. You just regroup at the top, and it just super-duper nice, no drop ride. And, what is neat about the ride, although it's on hold right now. since the pandemic. Is that people of all fitness levels could enjoy the ride. Some people never raced versus, Olympians. It was cool. And Kate Courtney would show up sometimes and it would be one of her anything goes day.

[00:47:30] So she knows this expectation that she not going to do a certain workout, so it can be a ride that you get out of it, what you want out of it. But the whole idea is camaraderie and spirit. Now I've never encountered another ride like this with such lack of ego and anything remotely resembling attitude.

[00:47:48]We have all different backgrounds. We have Eric Wolberg three or four time Olympian from Canada. We would just have fun exploring new roads. And honestly, something [00:48:00] I think is special and it really brings out the best in why we do the bike riding thing.

[00:48:05]That's part of what makes riding a bike special is because it levels the playing field. Even though there's different fitness levels, it really does level the playing field.

[00:48:15]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:48:15] Granted you have to have a certain amount of means in order to both acquire a bicycle and have the time to ride it. That's something that we should all be very mindful of. And that accessibility element isn't available to a significant majority of people really there's a lot of privilege that comes with riding a bike. Which is reflected in its demographics. 

[00:48:35] Ted Huang: [00:48:35] Exactly. I'm thinking the same thing, right? I don't want to go into the doping thing, but yeah. There's like in Europe, if you were professional bike racer, that's your way out of, let's see a life of farming, for example.

[00:48:46] I think it's different in the U S versus different parts of the world, but all in all, it is a privilege and it's not to be taken for granted, right? Because a lot of people around the world don't have access to something is simple as [00:49:00] a bicycle. 

[00:49:01] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:49:01] This might be a fun thing  to dive into a bit is topics of inclusiveness.

[00:49:05] So we've talked about some of the dynamics that would go into a ride that feels inclusive amongst those who join it. And that's an important thing, but if you look at the bicycle industry, if you look with bicycle owners it's predominantly white, predominantly male, the average income amongst cyclists tends to be higher. You're an Asian American man. Was there anything particular about that experience that was unique or not? 

[00:49:27]Ted Huang: [00:49:27] Yeah, so in cycling, I just recall quite vividly there hardly any other Asian American writers, obviously there was even fewer black writers.

[00:49:38]Like maybe one or two during my bike racing career. But very few Asians. And I didn't feel like I was treated any differently, but in some sense, I felt like I was imposing my own stereotypes on how Asian riders were.

[00:49:56] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:49:56] Oh, interesting. I'm curious what those stereotypes were.

[00:50:00] [00:49:59] Ted Huang: [00:49:59] The stereotype I had was , we were more fast Twitch. We couldn't climb very well. Couldn't do longer climbs very well. And I never really saw a really good Asian except for Campo Wong from Hong Kong. He was at another level or more at the world tore level, but domestically, I just didn't see Asians being successful in bike racing. 

[00:50:20]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:50:20] I would imagine the community, as much as it is still majority white and male, at that time there was, even fewer non white males riding bicycles.

[00:50:29] Ted Huang: [00:50:29] Yeah.  So for me, actually, my main experience in terms of inclusion in running a pro cycling team at the disparity in wages between women and men.

[00:50:38] And that still remains a huge sore point for me, that women make so much less than equivalent male counterparts. Even they work equally as hard and that's all media based. We could go for hours on this, and that's why we had such a highly educated women's team because they were all coming at this [00:51:00] post grad school , most of them. 

[00:51:01]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:51:01] I think it was Rebecca Rush, I was at a dinner party when she was at and. She was sharing, that she worked a lot in the off season. She was one of the top female athletes in the sport, and yet she was still, working a side hustle, and had to work really hard for her sponsorships.  That speaks to something, not just in cycling, broader systemic issues.

[00:51:21] Ted Huang: [00:51:22] Yeah, in windsurfing, I was the only Asian American at one point on the U S team. And I was treated differently, but I thought it was mostly because I was youngest one on the team, but  I didn't feel like a sense of belonging if we talk about belonging, being different looking than everyone else, even though they treated me mostly the same at the higher levels, the institutional level, I'm not so sure. I was treated equitably, but there was definitely some potential structural bias happening. At my age, I didn't really recognize it. It seemed like there's a little bit of, shall we say, different treatment.

[00:51:57] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:51:57] Institutional bias, even [00:52:00] subconscious bias amongst individuals, which doesn't really get surfaced unless there's a safe place to actually talk about it, including for the people who have the biases. I can definitely identify biases within myself that I held. And I certainly will unpack more that are just subconscious things that are absorbed through culture.

[00:52:18]Ted Huang: [00:52:18] I have them too, and recognized them.   The last few years, I'm pointing out to myself. Wow,  I have my own biases and it's so hard to shake and they're so subconscious that you don't even know they're happening , it's so unconscious, but still affects outcomes of conversations.

[00:52:35] So going back to your theme again of belonging, I heard this the other day in this medical forum because of Christine that, it should be diversity inclusion and belonging. The belonging piece, I think, is crucial to helping be a solution to inclusion.

[00:52:51]Because if you don't feel like you belong, you can include somebody, check the box, but is that really being inclusive if they don't feel like they belong? 

[00:52:59]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:52:59] A bit of [00:53:00] counterintuitive wisdom that I've picked up in recent months is that feeling of belonging is something that you have to give to get. Which is to say, show up in the world in a way that is authentic and vulnerable and accepting of other people , and there will be a gratitude for having created that space and a sense of connection. 

[00:53:19]Looking to the world to provide your sense of belonging is actually part of the problem. We co-create this feeling of belonging, you don't have one way feelings of belonging amongst people or amongst groups. It has to be something that is emergent. At some point, somebody has to be aware in order to help to create the conditions. And I view my own responsibility is becoming ever more aware and mindful and then showing up in the world in a way that models what I've learned and had imparted on me by people who've become aware and creating those conditions together.

[00:53:51] Ted Huang: [00:53:51] Yeah, you completely hit it on the head. I think, really the distill it down, I feel like you need to bring vulnerability into the conversation, but if you can recognize everything is a [00:54:00] two-way street. Maybe that could be the mantra.  You find yourself slipping into the one-way street.

[00:54:05] You go, this is a two-way street. So shut up and listen. So how many times are we so focused on getting our point out there that we don't actually listen to the other person? Cause that's, that creates a sense of belonging. Like literally that could be the first step. And I'm actually feeling like that's probably one of the more important Skills to learn is what we call active listening.  Part of my philosophy is create space for you to respond more intentionally opposed to just reacting. 

[00:54:34]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:54:34] There's an element of, if you want to be heard, sit and listen and find resonance in the experience of others and create that container where they can step in, and then they're curious. My own practice early on the first bit of awareness I had was of caching. It's like, Oh, we're having this conversation. You're talking. It triggered this idea in my head and I'm going cache that. Now I'm focusing on cashing cause I don't want to forget this really important point, and then I'm [00:55:00] not listening. 

[00:55:01]So an intermediate point toward active listening is letting go of your point. If it's important, it'll emerge later in the conversation. 

[00:55:10] Ted Huang: [00:55:10] I love that. So essentially trusting that it'll come back. That's why we react a lot of the time. Cause we don't want to lose the thought. You don't want to, have to come back to it. If we have eye contact and aren't writing it down. Because you might forget, but it's almost trusting yourself. 

[00:55:26] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:55:26] And it gets into the deeper meaning of the conversation or the ride experience. It's this connection element, what facilitates connection. Is it that point that you had to make, or is it  that hill that you had to beat everybody up or is it the shared experience in this feeling of being part of something belonging and so on?

[00:55:44] Is there anything  we didn't cover today that you'd like to dive into as we start to wrap up the conversation? 

[00:55:50] Ted Huang: [00:55:50] I just think, in this day and age of the pandemic, mental resiliency is key to being happier.

[00:55:59]And so [00:56:00] I think we talked about briefly in a past conversation about our ability to reframe situations or ways to look at situations that made to seem like there's no positive side to it . If you can take a moment, take a couple of deep breaths, and then see if you can see what positives are coming from what seemed to be a completely negative situation that you're encountering. Because usually it takes days to come back to recognizing the benefits of something terrible happened to you. But if you can use the power of your breath or paying attention to how your breath is traveling in and out of your body for a few moments to quickly reframe, I think you'll more quickly become on the path to perspective and moving on. I think that's an important point I want to impart to listeners is that, even riding your bike, you may be hearing stuff you don't agree with from your ride [00:57:00] partners take a couple of deep breaths, reframe. Could be when you're in excruciating pain, trying to keep up, focus on your breath. And  all you're doing is you're distracting yourself from these woulda, coulda, shoulda. What if thoughts, and judgmental thoughts, and then you're getting back to being in the moment.

[00:57:16]My whole goal with helping people is to achieve that moment to moment presence. I'd like to keep that theme alive with listeners. I think that's part of the reason we ride our bikes is to have that moment to moment presence that riding a bike helps us to get to.

[00:57:32]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:57:32] This idea of who's to know what is good and what is bad. Oftentimes we will want to avoid difficult feelings and difficult experiences because they hurt, because they're painful, but there's this idea of post-traumatic growth, using one's triggers as teachers, sitting with it and saying, what is this trying to show me about my opportunity for growth, for wholeness. 

[00:57:52]Even the pandemic, you might view as a cause of a lot of suffering, but there's actually another framing. This idea of "change [00:58:00] happens when the fear of change is less than the pain of staying the same". The pandemic for me and I think for a lot of people has ratcheted up the pain in the sense of, all of a sudden we're forced to sit with ourselves. And that can be really uncomfortable. 

[00:58:13]But the other side of that equation as the pain is ratcheting up is the fear of change.  One of the things that I use in order to feel balanced is "how do I reduce that fear of change". So I appreciate you coming on to participate in this experiment in conversation about the deeper meaning of the bike as an on-road to exploring the psyche and community.

[00:58:35] Ted Huang: [00:58:35] Thank you for having me Randall. It's been an honor and a privilege. I hope the listeners enjoy it and, take from it what they will. I think you're on a wonderful path to not only self enlightenment but exposing others to so many different facets of what riding does for us and beyond. It's just so much depth to our experiences you're helping to flesh out. 

[00:58:56]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:58:56] A note to listeners to this before we go. If you'd like to engage with Ted, you [00:59:00] can do so at the ridership where we'll have a conversation going in The Gravel Ride Podcast channel that Ted the attending to answer your questions and connect. You can visit his website, Ted Or you can find him on instagram @tedperformance.

[00:59:13]And finally, I would like to thank you the listener for joining this experiment in conversation. And I'd like to encourage you to join us on the ridership forum to share your thoughts on this new concept, as well as some guests that we might bring on in the future. 

[00:59:26]Craig will be back next week. So to honor him in the meantime, I'll simply close here by saying, "here's to finding some dirt under your wheels."