Aug 15, 2023
Community, exchange, interdependence, celebration, purpose: in this episode, Randall and O+ Founder Joe Concra share an example of bicycles serving as a vehicle first for connection, and from there serendipity, collaboration, and the creation of meaning. Join Joe, Randall, and other members of the community at the O+ Festival in Kingston, NY from October 6-8 for a weekend of music, art, riding, and wellness. https://opositivefestival.org/
Episode sponsor: Hammerhead Karoo 2 (use code THEGRAVELRIDE for free HRM)
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Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:
[00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport
I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.
This week on the podcast, I'm going to hand the mic over to my co-host Randall Jacobs. Who's joined by Joe conqueror. Joe is the founder of the O positive festival. In New York. He's joining. Randal's talk about community and how the bicycle serves as a vehicle for connection. I think you'll enjoy this conversation. But before we jump in i need to thank this week sponsor hammerhead and the hammerhead crew to computer
The hammerhead crew too, is the most advanced GPS cycling computer available today with industry leading mapping navigation and routing capabilities. That set it apart from other GPS options, free global maps and points of interest included like cafes and campsite. It means you could explore with confidence and on the go flexibility. Once again, the other night I was hit with hammerheads bi-weekly software update where new features are released so unlike other head units, your crew too continues to evolve and improve each ride, getting better than the last. Personally, I love the climbing feature. That's available on the crew too. One thing I noted in comparison to some of the other devices I've used is that now the climber feature kicks in whether or not you've got a route loaded or not. That's super important. I was riding the other day, testing out another device and I had a climb that's very known, but I didn't have a route loaded. And all of a sudden that climbing feature wasn't available. I very much appreciate what the engineers at hammerhead have done to make this computer as good as it can be, but to continue to improve it. For a limited time, our listeners can get a free heart rate monitor with the purchase of our hammerhead crew to just visit hammerhead.io right now, and use the promo code, the gravel ride at checkout to get yours today. This is an exclusive limited time offer for our podcast listeners. So don't forget to use the code. Duck gravel ride. That's a free heart rate monitor with your purchase of a career to. From hammerhead.io. With that business behind us. I'm going to hand the mic over to Randall and I'll talk to y'all next week.
[00:02:33] Randall Jacobs (host): Where do we
[00:02:33] Joe Concra: begin? I don't know. The Randall Joe Comedy Hour. I have no idea. Where do you wanna start? Well,
[00:02:38] Randall Jacobs (host): how about origin story because people have asked me this a number of times and I actually don't know if I get it right. I think I get the high level of it, like how we met,
[00:02:47] Joe Concra: how we met.
Huh? How did we, you you go back a little ways now. Yeah. So here, this is what I remember. It was a dark and stormy night. And, uh, now if I remember correctly, so I'm sure we'll get into o positive and what O positive is at some point, but I was doing. As I often do research on partners for O positive to help this crazy experiment continue.
But I'm also like a mad cyclist, mad being the operative word. And I somehow found thesis and I think I just wrote to the info at and was like, I think this model's really awesome. And I do this festival where we exchange for healthcare, which probably doesn't make any sense at all. And. Would you like to come talk about being a sponsor or a partner?
Yeah. And then you said, we're actually gonna be on the east coast. And then I ridiculously said, well, why don't you swing through Kingston and we can demo a bike? Which then I had to buy a bike. That's how
[00:03:51] Randall Jacobs (host): that why you bought a
[00:03:51] Joe Concra: bike. Well, I rode it. Okay. I mean, it was pretty simple. Once you ride it, you're like, okay, this bike's amazing.
I should probably ride more gravel and get off the road. I've survived this long in my life without being killed by a car. So, uh, yeah, that's why. Is that close to what you remember? That's
[00:04:07] Randall Jacobs (host): more or less exactly the way I tell the story. Yeah. So essentially you'd reached out and, the way I've told it is you had said, Hey, I like what you guys are doing.
I'm thinking about getting a bike also, here's what I do and you should come check out Kingston. Um, and then that evolved into, you know, we did a small, uh, event at, uh, utility bikes.
[00:04:28] Joe Concra: Yes. Uh, great time.
[00:04:29] Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. And really from that first moment there was a seed planted in me about being here. Some listeners will know I now live in Kingston, but
[00:04:37] Joe Concra: we're closing the gate after you.
Yeah. Like nobody else, like, oh yeah. Don't come here. It's not fun here. It's terrible here. Yeah. Don't, this is not where you want to be. Yeah.
[00:04:46] Randall Jacobs (host): And I remember, at the time I was becoming, I wasn't quite done with San Francisco, but , I was getting to a different place in life and didn't quite know what would come next.
And that seed was watered every single time I came back and I kept coming back. Mm-hmm. So, I'm trying to remember, I think the next time I came, we had a little team summit. Mm-hmm. A couple of team members during Covid. And, we were here with you and, you showed us around, and we were here for a couple of days and that was great.
I remember ending up on your roof deck, looking at the mountains on this beautiful day with my colleagues, and then the next time I came, I think it might have been my first O positive. Did the gravel ride.
Yep. I made a couple of friends on the ride who are now friends here that, you were starting the, what was then trust hub now Trust up project. Mm-hmm. And, you were looking for somebody to, to help run it. You had this idea for something and some funding lined up.
And. I joined the, the hiring committee. And now, I've been involved as a advisor and now, Rob Jameson, who runs that project is a good friend. Yeah. And so, on a very personal level, like you've had a pretty big impact on my life.
Through the direct things that you've done with me, but then also, just the, the resonance that I felt while being here, hanging out with you, the people I met through you and through the, the, the community that is here. so much so that I moved here, I bought my first house. That's says a lot about, about you and about this place, and this is a place that has a significant amount of your influence on it.
Hmm. You walk around and you have the murals and you see the little o positive, the bottom of the mural. And, you know, there's a number of community initiatives that have been kicked off in this area, presumably stemming from that initial o positive grant when you first got the festival off the ground or, or a few years after that.
Mm-hmm. So .
[00:06:43] Joe Concra: Thank you. Yeah. I'm so glad we're not. Like you actually said, do you want to do this with video? And I, and it's because of this, cuz I be, people would see that I'm bee red right now. Um, because I'm, I thank you. And also, like, it makes me very uncomfortable to hear these things. I feel like everybody does the best they can.
And you get lucky to create space for things to happen if you're really, you know, if you really, really think about what we do. As human beings, as people listen to this as cyclists, right? We're always looking for the gaps. We're always looking for the space. We're always looking for that. That thing between the thing, right?
At least I know I am. So when we met, I was like, oh, well here's the bike I'm going to ride, and this, this guy seems really interesting. I want to know more about what they're doing and what gives somebody a. Like, why does somebody wanna reinvent the wheel? Is literally what I thought when I meant you, like you want to bring down costs, you want this thing to be this, this way you're designing it.
It's amazing. Like same for me, like being on a bicycle for me in the woods, being out. Like last night I went riding in some hippie, decided to destroy my knee, but it was a voodoo doll. And we'll get to that. And uh, I wanna keep you all the same. You're riding in Woodstock. Yeah. No close. Rosendale, same thing.
Yeah. Um, but you know, There is a desire to work a lot in community and do a lot of really good things. The counter weight to that is being on your bicycle and being alone. Yeah, so I can tell you that the thesis bike that I ride more than any road riding I did since 1982 on right. Being in the woods on gravel alone and like riding by a beaver pond and seeing an owl.
At seven o'clock at night in the Hudson Valley is the quiet, it gets the monkeys outta your head and quiets you down. So I'm very, very thankful for, you know, what you've designed. This podcast. I really like the, I really like what's on Slack. I think that's really, really great. It's able to communicate with people on the ridership is great.
So, you know, there's mutual respect in that way. I think that it's really, really important just to acknowledge how. You know, cyclists are weird, right? They're like hockey goalies, soccer goalies, cyclists, place kickers in football, right? They're, every cyclist I know is like, yeah, I really wanna be your friend, but also leave me alone.
Like it's this weird dichotomy, like they've got their hand up and come here at the same time, which I really appreciate and I find that really, really, really, I'm just thankful
[00:09:19] Randall Jacobs (host): You have maybe more of an outside view on cycling and cyclists than I do, cuz I had just been in it for so long.
Mm-hmm. Like I was a competitive cyclist for a period and that's its own kind of mindset. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. worked for, worked in the industry quite a bit for quite a long time. I mean, obviously I have a company I do this podcast and so on, so I was like in it versus you are, I think first and foremost, what.
An artist, a community builder.
[00:09:47] Joe Concra: Yeah. I think first and foremost, I, I make paintings. I mean, that, that's what I do. Right. And then I do all these other things outside of the studio. Right. So I, I run a nonprofit with my friends who, which I built since two in 2010, um, that exchanges art and music for medicine at the festival you've been to every year?
Yep. We're about to go year-round with a clinic after 13 years to take care of artists, musicians based on an exchange model, not based on money, trying to take money outta the system. Um, and. I ride bikes and I've ridden bikes like every day of my life for my entire life because I love them and surround myself with cyclists and just riding in general.
Um, so yeah, not a pro avid cyclist, I think is what they would call it back in the day. An avid
[00:10:26] Randall Jacobs (host): cyclist. Well, before we, we dive in on the, the clinic and o positive and so on. I'm just, uh, want to kind of pull at this thread. What, what do you notice? Do you notice patterns amongst cyclists in particular? So you mentioned
[00:10:41] Joe Concra: like, can I just throw this?
Can I throw a cyclist under the bus? Like metaphorically?
[00:10:44] Randall Jacobs (host): I mean, we're under there. All right. It does
[00:10:47] Joe Concra: too. I think everybody listening to this knows this. This isn't a secret. But I was a road rider for years. Mm-hmm. Like back in the, you know, you turn whatever age you get your, you save up your money cuz you're working at McDonald's or your newspaper route and you buy your first road bike, it's like a Ross, it's yellow, it's ugly as hell.
Then you graduate to your next bike and you get a Schwinn cuz you think that's the best bike, whatever. And you're, Greg Lamonts, your, all those things. Then you spend years in group road rides and you do a little bit of like racing, like you and stuff, and you do all the things and you train to, and you go on group rides.
A couple years ago, after getting the thesis four years ago now, I stopped. Hmm. And I was like, what a culture shift. I'm not hammering, I'm riding with my friends, I'm getting a great workout. I'm in the woods and just recently, and I know people are gonna listen to this and know me, and I rode ride with him.
Please don't put your pump into my spokes when we ride together. But I went on a group ride again, a road group ride, and it was terrible. I spent the whole time looking at the wheel in front of me and somebody's back when I went to the front. I got to say I have a good, nice view, but that's what I noticed more than anything else.
People are moving away from that way of riding to a more community based ride. For instance, you mentioned utility bikes. There's a whole generation of kids in sneakers and cutoff jeans. Yeah. And that's their ride. That's how they ride. Yeah. The old guys like me wearing stupid spandex, plastic shit. Like, sorry, I didn't mean to curse.
Can I curse on a
[00:12:23] Randall Jacobs (host): podcast? No, no. That's definitely gonna get us in trouble.
[00:12:26] Joe Concra: Well, sorry. Ftc. F F, fda, whatever, whatever. Regulatory agency. Not the human consumption,
[00:12:32] Randall Jacobs (host): fda,
[00:12:34] Joe Concra: But I think that's the big shift, right? There's been this massive cultural shift. I'm a little bit nervous to see money going into gravel riding.
Yeah, in a way that I think it might screw it up a little bit. It starts getting a little bit competitive where I really like the, like, like the first big long distance gravel ride I did. I remember like getting ready and being like a little bit nervous, like it was a race. I kept reminding myself it's a ride, and then like some dude passes me cranking out Aerosmith on a boombox tied, tied underneath his top tube wearing a cowboy hat, cut off jeans and sneakers smoking a joint, and I'm like, this is amazing.
I couldn't believe it. I was like, what a different culture. So I, I hope that that culture, um, exists and keeps growing. I,
[00:13:15] Randall Jacobs (host): I think it will. I think gravel specifically, there's something about the medium that is itself, very conducive to that. You're doing mixed terrain riding. You're leaving from your back door.
It's not like a road ride where. You're either going solo or you might be going on some group hammer ride. The train isn't changing all that much and so on. Or a mountain bike ride where you're hopping in your car. so there's something more out the door. I think the events that I've been to, there's definitely a trend towards, elite racing.
Mm-hmm. , we, we've had, event organizers, for some of the biggest races on the pod, uh, had, have had elite racers on the pod and so on. Mm-hmm. And like, that's its own thing. And as a, I would've joked in the past and I almost did it again, I was gonna say a recovering racer, but at the time I was racing, it was great.
Yeah. Like I was living my best life. And just because current me isn't into that, Doesn't mean that past me was getting it wrong, cuz future me is definitely gonna look at current me and say what were you doing at that time? Right. Yeah. And the other thing I'd say is if you're more resonant with one way of riding create that and let people migrate to it,
like the utility ride and a couple of the rides around here. But also what we've talked about, growing o positive rides around that, there's no race. It's more like, here's a ride where we're gonna go out and have a shared adventure. go through a share shared ordeal.
It'll be accessible to riders of a variety of different abilities. And then we're gonna have a party after. Totally.
[00:14:43] Joe Concra: in fact, it's a whole weekend of
[00:14:44] Randall Jacobs (host): a party. Yeah, let's talk about that. So let's get in, but I also, what are, what are the dates?
[00:14:48] Joe Concra: Uh, this year will be October 6th, seven and eight.
Yep. And, but I just wanna say this for all my roadie friends, cuz I still go out on the road, don't hate me, but there's road rides at Oak Positive too. Are road ride right? Mean there's road gravel and a mural to mural tour. Mm-hmm. Um, for families and kid-friendly and bring your dogs and whatever craft you want to try to pedal around.
Yep. Uh, the city of Kingston. So I'll give you a little bit of the origin story and what we do cause I think that'll probably help people. So if you haven't heard about o Positive, which I suppose most people haven't, um, we are based in Kingston, New York. And our festivals, which are music and art based, every artist and musician who plays the festival.
Puts up a mural, dances tells comedy, whatever they do. In exchange, we build a clinic, and in that clinic are 160 providers. Everyone sees a doctor, has access to a dentist, mental health professionals, acupuncture, massage, you name it, it's all there. We started in 2010 with a really simple idea. As a painter, it was very, it was very, Easy to say, well you know what, we never have insurance.
So what if we did a festival where instead of paying the artists with money, cuz we didn't have any money anyway, we got a bunch of doctors who loved music and art and said, would you see these people? So what started as a very, very small festival in 2010? We've done 22 festivals nationwide. Our home base is here in Kingston every year in October.
We do the big one here and, uh, it's grown to include gravel riding and a whole weekend of experiential yoga and sound healing dance parties. You name it, it happens from Friday night till Sunday night. When is
[00:16:23] Randall Jacobs (host): this coming out? We can put it out whenever.
[00:16:25] Joe Concra: Okay. Whenever makes sense. I can give you a headliner.
So yeah, this year one of our headliners will be comedy. It's bobcat. Goldway. I dunno if you remember him from the movies and, but I remember it was a standup guy with that crazy voice. But I can't wait to say hi to him and meet him and thank him for making me laugh for years. Because especially coming outta the pandemic, like, we're not dead yet.
Like, we should laugh. Like, we should be like, holy shit, we're alive. Like, let's enjoy this moment. And hopefully he'll go to the doctor, he'll go to the dentist, he'll talk about mental health, you know, and, and people will be able to come out and enjoy the weekend. Yeah.
[00:16:58] Randall Jacobs (host): Well, that was one of the things that really resonated with me when I first started looking into a positive and getting to know you and coming here was this feeling of okay, there, are there issues in the world that affect me personally?
Like I have a significant concern about engaging with the medical system, the medical industrial complex because you hear horror stories. And I know people who've been bankrupted by a system that, on the one hand people say, here in America we have the best healthcare in the world.
Well, you might add the caveat that money can buy. Mm-hmm. But, unless you have really good insurance you can end up drained, if you're a small business owner or something like that.
Yeah. and you don't have a platinum package. And then there's all these ways in which it deals with symptoms and not with underlying issues. Mm-hmm. Like mental health isn't simply going to a therapist once a week, though I've had periods in my life where that was really helpful in transitioning and getting context and so on, but it's much more holistic.
It's like, do you feel a sense of belonging in your community? Mm-hmm. are you part of something bigger than yourself where other people rely on you for certain things and when you have need people are there to help you out. And that's something I, I experienced from day one, uh, upon moving here.
And I have it within my family and I've had it within friend groups, but to a lesser degree, in other places cuz people lived to apart or like they're too focused on their career or whatever it else. Mm-hmm. I had some very dear friends in San Francisco, but, everyone's really busy.
Mm-hmm. I didn't know my neighbors. I lived in a building with six units. And I barely ever spoke my neighbors, despite my best efforts, right? Mm-hmm. I, you know, I'm very gregarious in that way. And the dynamics here were different. And last year was really the tipping point for me being at the festival and just seeing how all the things that I liked about, say, something like burning Man, but without the excess and the exclusivity and the whole place of washing and money, even though it's pretending not to be about money. Mm-hmm. and you're seeing live music and you're celebrating with your neighbors. Mm-hmm. Like, you're in celebration with people that you're going to see the next day at the cafe.
Mm-hmm. Or my neighbor works at the convenience store on the corner. Mm-hmm. You know, things like this. that's a very different thing that for me, I, I had this feeling of wanting something and not knowing what it was. Mm. And then when I experienced that, I was like, this is it.
Mm. This is the thing where, I go positive for me represents something much bigger. As big as the healthcare component of it is. Mm-hmm. It, it is, is a different mindset in many
[00:19:37] Joe Concra: ways. Yeah. I think, I mean, that's, So wonderful to hear you say that. I would say that because O Positive takes money out of a system that people are used to having run by money for three days and says, Hey look, this can be different.
The whole tenor of that weekend feels. Like what you just said, it feels inclusive, it feels community. And people have always said, I can't even describe what it is. And I'm like, well, don't worry about it because we're not used to it. Right. Like we are not used to living in a system where we go, you know, that's not, I mean, yes, we take donations to come into the festival, we run on donations, right.
But when you go through the clinic, if you're an artist or musician or volunteer, and you go through that clinic and you get a root canal in exchange for playing your set, Mm-hmm. That's a whole different conversation because what it does is it says, Hey, we value each other equally. Yes. And that is different because we live in a system that does not value people equally ever.
We value money first, usually, and we say it, oh, positive, not this weekend. Not this weekend. And that is vital. And the other thing that I think that's really important is you recently moved to a town where. You know, it's in flux. Yes. Because people have moved in, in, in droves here during the pandemic, but also like we introduced artists, musicians for 13 years now to their local doctor.
So we hear it on the medical side. Like, I love being a doctor here because I know these patients, these are now my friends. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because when you're at that show and you're dancing Yes. That doctor's dancing next to you. Yep. And that is totally cool because the lab coat's not on. Yeah. And we take, we just peel away.
All of the, all of the things that we, all the baggage we bring.
[00:21:29] Randall Jacobs (host): Well, so you mentioned money and, and we can really distill it down to using price, denoted in money as the sole driver of exchanges. And so you need a thing. And you go on Amazon and you order the thing cuz it's the lowest price and it gets delivered at your door and you get up the next day or a couple days later and it's there.
Right? Mm-hmm. You have no relationship with the person who made it. You probably don't even interact with the person who delivered it. Right. There's no relationship there. Mm-hmm. Nobody involved in that exchange is going to be there for you when you don't have money to buy a thing. Right.
Right. And furthermore there's benefits of providing things to other people that are not incorporated in what you get paid. Like I don't help out my neighbor when he needs to move an air conditioner because he's gonna pay me. I do it because it's an opportunity to hang out.
Mm-hmm. And because the day I moved in, he was coming over the fence to say hello and we were talking about taking down the fence. yeah. And, having that sort of Interdependency and having exchanged that is taking into account. Like, I get to interact with you, I get to be in community with you. That has value. the other thing you mentioned, valuing everybody the same, the trust up project. Core to that vision when you initially pitched it was this concept of time banking. Mm-hmm. It took me some time to get my head around it. I kept wanting to fit it into a model of like, oh, well maybe somebody can earn two time credits if their service is worth more.
Right. Or something like that. It's like, no, no, that's not how it works. Maybe talk about some of that concept and how it integrates into the mindset around what you're building with o
[00:23:03] Joe Concra: positive. Well, yeah, I mean, it's interesting, right? If we talk, first of all, I mean, The dollar is a great unit, unit of measure, right?
We all agree that this is the unit of measure, so I get that side of the story. I think what we are trying to address is the inequity of that dollar and how that dollar is different values for each, for different professions. So if we think about time banking or we think about just straight exchanges, what you want to do is even get away from what you said.
In our mind, it's like, no, a doctor visit isn't worth two units of measure. Yeah. Right. You don't
[00:23:39] Randall Jacobs (host): need a medium of exchange. It's a, it's, it's a direct exchange.
[00:23:42] Joe Concra: Exactly. It's harder. Exactly. And time is just time. Yeah. I will give my time, whatever that time would take mm-hmm. To do this task. Oh, I am available.
I could also let you use my lawnmower for this much time. I mean, Yeah, this, the funny part is Randall, at the end of the day, I think what we are doing in all the things we're doing here in Kingston and, and other small communities that are doing a lot of these things, we're just trying to get back to the way our grandparents lived in community.
We've somehow lost our way cuz we've gone so global to really hyper-local action and, you know, oh, positive to me, from the beginning, sitting at this exact table, like writing it all up and coming up with friends and dreaming it all up. Was about knowing that my grandparents, who had nothing would trade sweet potatoes to see the doctor with their doctor.
And that was enough for the doctor. The doctor always had sweet potatoes. Somebody else would give 'em money. My grandparents could give him sweet potatoes, so they got to go to the doctor. So, you know, it's, it's just a different way of being a neighbor.
[00:24:48] Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. Well I think that the getting to be a neighbor is, Really the essential bit, being in community has value and there is resiliency that comes into it that doesn't get banked in the sense that there's some ledger. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. But it's banked in the sense that people have a certain feeling around you.
Mm-hmm. And you around them. And when there is hardship, that trust in those relationships that are built up mm-hmm. Form a web of interdependence Amazon's not gonna be there for you if you don't have any money to buy the thing. Right. and you know, it may be more expensive to make certain things locally and there's certain goods that it makes sense to centralize and distribute long distances and so on. But there's a lot of things where it does that doesn't make sense. And the price mechanism only works because there's so much direct subsidy in the firm of government subsidies, tax breaks, and so on.
Or there's indirect subsidies in the sense that there's all these negative externalities, depletion of soil fertility or pollution of the water or pollution of the air, or changes in climate , that are not incorporated into the price.
And that's Economics 1 0 1. You get Adam Smith's various market failures taught early on. And then you forget about them from then on when you get your neoliberal economics education. That was my undergraduate.
Wow. Yeah. That, that
[00:26:04] Joe Concra: sounds, yeah. Well, it's interesting what you, what you were just saying. You know, as you're talking, I'm like, oh my God, yes. Oh my God. Oh, it's too big. Oh, what do we do about, because people need money to pay to buy food. Still, we're not, we don't have a, we haven't built a perfect system.
What we're trying to do is show people what's possible and then hopefully they can go to their own communities and do something that is important to them to do, because, you know, we are not gonna get away from this system tomorrow or the next day. We may not even have a planet by the time we're ready to get rid of this system and change it with something else.
But in the meantime, we sure as hell can try and we sure as hell can build something that like someone like you is attracted to, right? Like, we know people have moved here because of O positive, like you just said it, but like we've been getting that for years because I wanna live in a community that actually values art and medicine and everything else.
Equally, that's life, right? Without that, what do we have? Like, I don't know. I don't wanna live in a world without art and music and caring for each
[00:27:06] Randall Jacobs (host): other, but we can have some sense of security from accumulating lots of things and living in a big house with a tall fence or Yeah. Or building a big buffer of dollars in our bank account or something like this.
But, I don't think that the issue is gonna be, we're not gonna have a planet. I mean, the planet's not going anywhere. The question is how well it's going to support the sort of existence that we actually want to have for ourselves and those we care about. I view it as kind of a series of incremental experiments.
Mm-hmm. You know, not everything sticks. Not everything works. And I love the, iteration process
[00:27:38] Joe Concra: did you see the waste basket behind me with all the different ideas that are just all over the floor, like thousands of them.
Like just the things that don't work. Oh my God, that time I was gonna start, you know, give mayonnaise to a tuna and cut out the middle man, that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:27:52] Randall Jacobs (host): Well, I mean, being going for 13 years, so that says something. Yeah, it's hard.
[00:27:57] Joe Concra: It's, um, you know, we survive off the support of the community.
At the festival, everybody gets tickets. There's a price to it, but it's, it's like $75 for three days, which is insane. Um, and if you don't have that, we have community tickets available for everybody. So it's, it's, you know, It's a very low barrier to entry. In fact, if you have nothing, I'm sure we can let you in.
So it's very simple to, to get involved and to, to do it and to do the work. I think that the, the hard part, We started as all volunteers and now we have a staff cuz we're going year round. Mm-hmm. Right. When we're taking over a space, we're building a clinic that's gonna open on August 11th. We're gonna go from three days to 365 with the dream of having a building that has music every night and art every night.
And people can just wonder what the hell's happening there. But you get healthcare at the same time. Right. So we're like a Trojan horse of healthcare. Right. We make a party and inside that party, Are all these doctors and dentists and massage therapists and acupuncturists and mental health professionals.
So we still need people's money, right? We still need the dollar while we build a separate system. And that is the hardest part. Like, that's what I worry about every day. How do we keep the lights on? And, um, it's daunting. That was my reality
[00:29:15] Randall Jacobs (host): check. Yeah. I mean, it is the part that, um, I'm excited to, you know, be more involved with.
As you know, my, my other commitments are less all-encompassing. Mm-hmm. Uh, building a house amongst them. Yeah.
[00:29:28] Joe Concra: Have you told people about your house? Uh, I've mentioned it because you say building a house, but does everybody know that you like bought like a. Freaking falling down log cabin in a city that nobody even knew was there.
It was covered in brambles. Like you guys, you all have to see and ladies, you, he Randall needs to, needs to post pictures from this place cuz it's like some weird mountain man's retreat from, but like 1970s with like shag carpets and bong hits everywhere. Like, but you're doing an amazing job. There may have
[00:29:57] Randall Jacobs (host): been some paraphernalia previously.
Less bongs and more bullet casings. Yes. Um, in flashband grenades.
[00:30:05] Joe Concra: Really? Oh yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's
[00:30:08] Randall Jacobs (host): pretty, that, that was a scary day when I found
[00:30:09] Joe Concra: those. Wow. That's ama It's pretty phenomenal what you found. And you are literally resurrecting someone's dream cabin from the 1970s and making it your own.
[00:30:20] Randall Jacobs (host): it'll be, uh, it'll be a community space as well, like adding, uh, a couple of, uh, loft bedrooms in there that I. Uh, we'll make available for, for people to, to, you know, coli. And then, um, there's a new ADU law accessory Dwelling Unit law in Kingston. Be attending some meetings around that and hopefully I can build a couple of smaller structures on the property.
Nice. And then everyone who's on the property would have access to the main cabins, so like the grand room and the kitchen and the solarium off the back and so on. And have it be, um, well, I, I want, I want to learn permaculture. Mm-hmm. I want to grow as much food as I can fit. On that small little parcel in the city.
Mm-hmm. Have some fruit trees facing the street that people can walk by and graze from. Mm-hmm. As I've enjoyed doing with the, uh, I think, uh, most recently it's, I got raspberries coming in and then, uh, there's lots of, uh, oh, what's the, the tr the tree berry that looks like a blackberry. That poison berry?
Uh, mulberry. Mulberry. Mulberry.
[00:31:15] Joe Concra: Oh my god. Mulberry's everywhere right now. The
[00:31:17] Randall Jacobs (host): birds love them. Yeah. Yeah. I just like stand under, stand on sidewalks, under, under trees and just like, you know, eat Yeah. Eat my weight and, and mulberries in those. Yeah. Sit there for 30 minutes and my hands and mouth are all, you know, blackish purple.
Uh, but yeah, that, that is something that I'm, I'm, uh, You know, it's still very much a still, still early stage, but as soon as it is structurally sound, um, there'll be, there'll be
[00:31:46] Joe Concra: gatherings. So you haven't put any pictures up on the ground? You got? Not really. No. You have to kind of behind the radar. It's crazy now that we've talked about it.
People have to see it. Yeah.
[00:31:56] Randall Jacobs (host): Um, so let's talk about, well, let's talk about, so come to a positive. What's the experience?
[00:32:01] Joe Concra: Yeah. Um, you get a wristband for three days. You have access to this year, ob. I said earlier about Bobcat, but there'll be 50 bands, maybe more. Um, several different stages to four or five different stages throughout the city.
It's all walkable. Um, the art will be, I think there's five or six muralists we have. It's a very small city of 22,000, but we have 60 murals up at this point. Mm-hmm. Um, there'll be five. More murals going up this year. Um, plus all the other art events that are happening. Dance and readings and performances and spoken word.
And, you know, you go to go on the website and as we start announcing the schedule, you'll get to see it. It's pretty exciting. Um, headlining music, amethyst Kia is playing. Um, there's a bunch, there's so many bands. It's, it's every year we're like, can we do 30? And it ends up being 50. And then you still reject.
Hundreds and hundreds of bands apply and you always feel terrible because you can't accommodate them all. But the clinic can only handle so many artist musicians. So that's one reason for us going year round that is so important. So we could have every night having people seen and then, you know, the whole weekend just feels joyful.
And Saturday morning, Those of us who ride get together and go on a 50 to 60 mile road ride. Um, the gravel ride, I think we will design it as like a 30 to 35 mile ramble down all the trails that Kingston is a hub for the Empire State Trail and a number of other trails. Mm-hmm. So we'll ramble down some trails to New Paltz and probably go up into Mohawk a little bit and then come back around and have a barbecue after and a big party and enjoy that.
And really, I mean, it's like you get a gravel ride, but you get like, All this music and all this art all weekend long.
[00:33:43] Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. And this, the, in terms of the venues, uh, so there's Kegan Nails. Yep. Uh, which, you know, brew Brewery, local Brewer has been there for a while. And there's a, a whole stage there as well.
Uhhuh, that's one of the venues. You have the old Dutch church. Yeah. Beautiful. Uh, just beautiful. And that is a music venue. And that's where the big, I know last year, Kimra amongst others. Yep.
[00:34:04] Joe Concra: Kimra played there in Mercury. Rev played there. I'm trying to think else who played there last year. But yeah, it's a beautiful space.
It's a Dutch reform church. It's one of the oldest buildings in the city.
[00:34:12] Randall Jacobs (host): It's, which is an old city. This was the original capital of New York state. Yeah.
[00:34:16] Joe Concra: Yeah, it was a fence around it to keep out people. It was very weird the way it was taken over. Oh, the stockade. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But hey, we're learning, you know, every couple years in the city of Kingston, they do this thing called the burning of Kingston.
And just one year I wanna just see if it actually will just burn. Like, I'm just like, why are we celebrating the, there's this, they do this celebration. This gives everybody an idea of like what living in Springfield and the Simpsons really is like every two years they, everybody dresses up in red coats and.
So, and, um, revolutionary wore outfits and they chased the red coats around the streets and forced them out. But the reality is when the red coats got here, everybody just left. Like everybody just, everybody just went to the next town. Nobody fought. Everybody's like, whatever. Take the town. We don't care.
But in our myth making history in our American myth making history, this town has turned it into this event where, you know, we held off the British, we didn't, it was no holding off. In fact, if we would've not held them off, maybe we would have a healthcare system. Not saying it would work great, but maybe we'd have a national healthcare system.
So too bad we won. Yeah. Um,
[00:35:22] Randall Jacobs (host): myth making.
[00:35:23] Joe Concra: but it's true. We make such crazy myths in this country about our history. Well, that's true of
[00:35:27] Randall Jacobs (host): any. Any country, any culture, totally. Any, I mean, myth is essential to unifying groups of humans, uh, for collective action, for community, for cohesion. Yeah. Shared myths are essential.
I mean, money, we talked about money earlier. Money is a shared myth. That's true. Why does it add value? Like what can you do with money? Muddy? Yeah. I mean, it has a little bit of thermal energy if you burn it, but not much compared to what you have to do to acquire it. Um, but no, it's the, the fact that you believe that this dollar is.
So, I mean, that's no
[00:35:58] Joe Concra: different, right? Well, except that everybody dressed up in costumes and chases everybody around the streets firing muskets. I mean, that's just weird. Yeah. I mean, I suppose so I think it's actually this year, by the way, and, and it, you, there have been years where it's taken place during O positive, so you get all these musicians and like leather and like weird outfits.
Amongst just itself, like a, you know, it's costume. This is my, it's its own mythmaking. Yeah. Oh my God. The rock and roll myths don't even get me started. But, uh, but it's pretty wild to see. Yeah. Rock and roll costumes and colonial costumes at the same time.
[00:36:30] Randall Jacobs (host): That's super funny. So we talked a bit about the festival, talked about the rides that are going on.
Yeah. Another thing I just wanna share about, you know, from a personal experience standpoint, with the festival is. There, I found, anyways, something very serendipitous, which is to say, I showed up. I, I know you, I knew peripherally a few people, who I'd bumped into. Um, and then I went on the ride and I saw some people I'd seen on the ride, the previous year and had spoken with a bit, but didn't, you know, couldn't even remember their names and so on.
Mm-hmm. But there was enough of like, oh yeah, I remember you from last year, and. What started as like, alright, I'm gonna go check out Kingston. Cause I feel drawn to there for some reason, but I'm going solo and I don't really know anybody. Ended up being like a series of serendipitous little events where I get pulled into something.
It's like, oh hey, like you're, you know, um, you were here last year. Oh, you know, I, I'm, you know, what do you do? Oh, I do this. Oh. Oh, what do you do? Oh, I'm a musician. I'm actually playing across from Rough Draft. Mm-hmm. Uh, tomorrow. And I go to that show and I see other people from the ride and then hanging out with him afterwards.
And it's. And get invited to another thing to, to go sit around a fire. I actually, in that case it was, uh, it was, it was, uh, I get a text from, from Rob who runs Trust Up, which mm-hmm. You got kicked off. He's like, Hey, are you in town? I'm like, yeah, I'm in town. I was thinking of heading back. He's like, oh, well we should hang out.
Ended up staying with him and his wife and his daughter. Mm-hmm. Um, over, I think a couple of nights and sitting around a fire, uh, that evening with a bunch of people who I now consider friends and so on, and, and that just, Happened over and over and over again over the course of the weekend, really being, being here.
And I find that that often happens as I'm kind of walking around the neighborhood. Mm-hmm. Uh, because there's, again, there's um, it's a big enough place where. It doesn't feel too small, it doesn't feel too isolated or anything else like that. It has all the things that I need. Like I very seldom feel, uh, granted I just got here mm-hmm.
Uh, some months ago, but I haven't had this feeling like, oh, I gotta go really far in order to, to find something interesting. Right. Um, but it, it's small enough where you bump into the same people over and over again. Like you see that person at the cafe. You know that that's also working there one or two days a week.
Like you, you bump into them every so often and eventually you end up sitting around the big table. Um, and you know, you have a conversation.
[00:38:49] Joe Concra: Yeah. The blessing and a curse of a mid-size to small town that Yeah. You know, you get to know everybody and at the same time it's like, oh, do I really wanna know anybody?
Everybody. But yeah, you're right. But the other interesting thing, and I mean you're somebody who's moved here recently is I'm always curious how you, how does one I. Wherever you're listening to this, wherever someone is, when someone new comes to town, there used to be a thing called the welcome wagon, right?
Like there would be, people would come over with a, a hot dish, right? Welcome to the neighborhood, here's some macaroni and cheese. Like how do you bring people in? And also economically, what's happened here, and I think what's happened if you draw a two to three hour circle around any major metropolitan area during the pandemic is.
The value of prices has gone up so high that a lot of our RS musicians have had place housing
[00:39:40] Randall Jacobs (host): in particular.
[00:39:40] Joe Concra: Yeah. A lot of our folks have had, have had to leave. Yep. Right. So how do you get the new crop, which everybody's always looking for, greener pastures, wants to move somewhere, right? So how do you engage new people to get involved and feel like they're part of the community?
I think that's, that's a difficult nut to crack sometimes.
[00:40:00] Randall Jacobs (host): I mean, I, I would flip the question. In a way that I think would have similar answers, but is more immediately actionable and say, what can you do where you are to kind of kick off or catalyze those types of dynamics. Mm-hmm. So, you know, examples of like, you know, I have a neighbor who, uh, sometimes I'll come home and they'll be a pastry in a, in a Pyrex container on my deck.
Mm. Right. Little acts of kindness go a long way. Um, or I. Uh, you with, I mean, trust, trust up was very much like looking to create, uh, a platform for kind of facilitating those types of dynamics. Mm-hmm. Where it's like, okay, you, here's a place where if you have some, some need or you have something you can contribute, you can come here.
And this, it's almost like a clearing house for, for, you know, those needs and resources, whether it be like you, you know, you need a tool, you need a hand with things. Something. Mm-hmm. Or you have some expertise and, uh, you can provide to someone else. And then the process of doing so again, unlike a, an anonymous remote transaction over the interwebs mm-hmm.
Where something just arrives at your door, you're having an, you're having a very intimate interaction with somebody that you're going to see again in your community. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, it really shifted, uh, like shifting the perspective from, uh, one of. I need to get as much utility defined very narrowly from every dollar I spend to, I have a certain set of needs and there's more than one way to get them met.
And in fact, when I think about fun, fundamental needs, um, most of the things that we think of as needs in in modern culture, even if you don't have a huge amount of resources, are wants. Right. Right. What do you really need? You need to be fed, you need to be Mormon. You know, you need shelter and water security.
Right. And then, you know, to, to live a live rich life, like, you know, you need a, a sense of belonging. Mm-hmm. Uh, you need, uh, some, some feeling of purpose, of, of meaning. Right. We are meaning creating machines like it, it's if, if humans do anything that seems really, um, that, that might be unique though. Uh, who knows what we'll discover as we are more and more able to interface with other non-human beings.
Mm. Um, but we generate meaning, you know, we're, we're using words that it's like language is meaning built on. Meaning on meaning. It's abstraction. On abstraction. On abstraction. Mm. But its core, like, uh, uh, if you, like, if you feel insecure, Like somatically insecure, and then you have all these narratives around it.
Only if I only had more money, only if I had this, this, this thing, right? That would be give me a feeling of, of, of esteem, right? I have the nice car, I have the clothes, I have the fancy bike, right? Mm-hmm. And the blingy, the blingy thing. Um, then I would feel, I would feel enough and I would feel secure and so on.
And that whole mindset is something that is uh, uh, it's running up the down escalator.
[00:43:15] Joe Concra: Oh, I like that. Yeah. Running up the down escalator sounds about right, but I didn't realize we were gonna get, I thought we were gonna just tell jokes for a while. This is getting really, this is getting, so I'm, I'm in a really philosophical mood these days.
Here I am making fun of people who wear spandex like me, and I'm trying to, and we're getting so heavy. But you're right. I mean, it's, are you a mammal, mammal,
[00:43:37] Randall Jacobs (host): middle age, something in Lycra. Middle aged man in Lycra. Oh my
[00:43:42] Joe Concra: God, I've never heard about that. I hope not. No, I don't think so. I'm past middle age at this point, aren't I?
I don't even know anymore.
[00:43:48] Randall Jacobs (host): Well, I guess actuarily. I'm middle aged. Yeah. So to the extent that I'm still rocking Lycra on occasion, I guess I'm
[00:43:53] Joe Concra: mammal. I, yeah, I think you're mammal. I think they're just looking at me in, be like, you're on the, I'm on the down. I'm on the, I'm on the downhill at this point.
There's no more climbing. I'm on the downhill. That's, that's it. But the climbing is my favorite thing to do on a bike, I have to say. Yeah. That's one thing I miss about road bikes versus, versus gravel bikes. Mm. I do love climbing on road bikes. Yeah. I love the dancing on the pedals. I love going up mountains.
I think it's, and around here it's great. Like, it's still my favorite thing. It's one thing I have not been able to do on a gravel bike is truly learn how to climb on gravel because it's so different than climbing on the road. And I find it, um, it's just less exhilarating. It's more of a slog. To sit in the saddle, figure out when to stand, when you're not gonna, how to distribute your weight, all that stuff.
See, now I'm getting a little cycling geeky. Yeah, keep going. But it's true. I really do. I really do have, I mean, I just, I love climbing and I am, when I'm on the gravel, first of all, most carriage roads and gravel roads around here at least are old rail beds. So the grades aren't super steep. So you find places to go climb.
So I find that, and this is one reason I decided to get a thesis, is. With the slicks on, I could just jump off the trail and just go climb a road. Because as you know, there's so many climbs around here. Yeah. So that's really great. But, but I'm not super good at, I'm not good at climbing on dirt. I'm really not.
[00:45:21] Randall Jacobs (host): It's a different thing. There's a certain, um, you're far fewer variables on the road, and so you can, I, I find that. Uh, well, not I find recently, but I have found in the past that there's a certain flow state they can get into on a long, sustained road climb. Yes. Where, you know, you're, you're escalating the intensity and your heart rate and your cadence and all your breathing and all these things are kind of at their limits.
And then once they fall into sync, all of that perception of suffering just kind of fades away and you're still going like, Really hard, but it's, it's, um, the all there is is that, that, that sinking mm-hmm. Of all the things, like, it's very, very, like in one's body, in, in that particular time and place.
Mm-hmm. That, that, that string, that world line of events, it's like very much in that. Uh, I love, I love that feeling.
[00:46:23] Joe Concra: I've never heard, I've never heard anybody talk about the thinking of it before. That's exactly it. That rhythm, that moment. Oh my gosh, it's so beautiful. It's so beautiful. You can't even des you just described it, but like, I want to get, I just wanna put on my freaking spandex and go out.
[00:46:39] Randall Jacobs (host): described it, uh, it was in Daoism, like the, the, the words used to describe the thing are not the thing itself. Yeah. Any, any Chinese nerds out there. But, but yeah, it's, that was the thing for me with cycling, it's like, oh, everything, everything can go away. Mm-hmm. Everything can fade and it's a whole different context, a whole different head
[00:47:04] Joe Concra: space.
Yeah. I call my thesis, my mental health machine. I'm sure other people call their bike that too. I think. I think it's just that thing that gets you. To what you just said, that flow state, that place, the other place. I feel that on a personal level is my studio. Yeah. There's only, there's only one place other, and my studio will always win even over the bike.
But, but it, but when you're just, when you get to that place where the thinking stops and the being is and it's just, it's, it's tremendous.
[00:47:29] Randall Jacobs (host): You know where I get that these days? Clearing brush, I
[00:47:33] Joe Concra: had that. I knew you were gonna say something about the cabin. Have we named this cabin yet? What is the name of this cabin?
Well someone tried to
[00:47:38] Randall Jacobs (host): call it Disaster Cabin. Yes.
[00:47:39] Joe Concra: I love that.
[00:47:40] Randall Jacobs (host): Um, But, you know, and, and I'll accept it, right. Because, you know, it was in rough shape and there's the Disaster Mansion and Disaster Cottage from, you know, two, two mutual friends. Yeah. In town, other, other falling down houses that hadn't been inhabited in a long time, that are being resuscitated.
Yeah. Um, but it doesn't feel like a disaster for me when I saw that house in the condition it was in, um, my feeling wasn't, oh, this is, this is. Gonna be a lot of work. Oh, this is, you know, how, how is it in this state? Or whatever The feeling was, this is my house. Yeah, that's great. I'm going to make this wonderful.
And in fact, having that, that thing to push against, kind of like pushing oneself up a mountain, um mm-hmm. But not being, you know, there, there are times, you know, again, just as with on a bike, it's like, oh, the top of the mountain is like so far away and my legs are burning, and like, I, I don't want to, why am I even doing this?
Mm-hmm. Why am I choosing this? Why am I such an idiot that I like, take on these hard things? Um, you know, that that's, you know, there are definitely those moments in, I think in any relationship. Mm-hmm. You know, any, any relationship to a thing or a person or something like that. If it's a meaningful relationship, it's, there's going to be some, some great difficulty.
Mm-hmm. Uh, but, but the reward is that state of like, you know, I'm doing a thing and yes, it will have a result. And that result will be satisfying. But actually I just love doing this thing too. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. The reward is the process and not the outcome. Yeah, I
[00:49:16] Joe Concra: was just gonna say that it's all about
[00:49:17] Randall Jacobs (host): process.
I think that, that, if I were to think about like a, a healthy relationship to the bike and, and, you know, would extend to any anything, is, uh, you know, it's used as a vehicle for that type of connection.
[00:49:34] Joe Concra: Yeah. Yeah. I, yeah. I thank you again for making such a nice gravel bike. Uh, it's really fun. It's just really
[00:49:43] Randall Jacobs (host): fun.
There are, there are lots of very enjoyable bikes. I think the stories that you have around it probably matter as much. It's
[00:49:49] Joe Concra: crazy how, I mean, I remember we first talked way back when, when you were, when you had been at specialized and you had started a thesis. It felt like a different world. Like there weren't as many companies making gravel bikes.
Mm-hmm. And now it's just like it was the early days. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Everybody has a gravel bike. I ride in order I, one of my road bike that I've written tens of thousands of miles on is a 2007 frame where Baya Orca just, I had bought the frame and I built it up with Campy and built all these, it's a Franken bike.
Right. I've spent more time on that bike than I have with anything in my life other than my cats. And, uh, And they now make a gravel bike or bay. Oh yeah. Every, and I'm like, what, what? How, how did they end up here? I, I
[00:50:32] Randall Jacobs (host): used to define it as the, the multipurpose road bikes that the industry should have been providing to regular riders all along.
Yeah. Like most riders don't need, you know, several different bikes for all the different purposes. Like a single bike, maybe with two wheel sets. Maybe with some features to, um, you know, make it adaptable to different types of riding, like a dropper and so on. I mean, that, that, that was the thesis. Yeah. I mean, not the only part of the thesis, but that was one of the core product thesis.
Right. And why we, we called it as such. And, uh, I still feel that way. Yeah. Like I, I still have a single bike with two wheel sets, so I still drink my own Kool-Aid, I guess, in that regard. That's great. Um, how'd you get into riding?
[00:51:16] Joe Concra: Oh, well, I was a disenfranchised youth. Ronald Reagan. Ronald Reagan made me ride a bike.
Um, I think growing up, you know, we all have our own stories, right? And I, I'm not a big fan of people. It's a big push these days, it seems. Everybody has to tell their story, right? It's just like kind of whatever. Everybody has the same damn stories. At the end of the day, we're all just trying to survive.
So, But I found the bike because I was a disenfranchised youth. That's the, that's the broad stroke of it all. And I was just like, I need to get outta here. I just need to get outta here. And I remember my first bike in a paper route, I think in Philadelphia where I had a paper route when I was a really young kid.
And just riding around the streets early in the morning, tossing paper newspapers. Remember newspapers? No, no. Nobody remembers newspapers. I do. All right. I delivered papers too. Excellent, excellent. I'm Ask Walham, Walham News Tribune, Massachusetts, right? I think I was the first. My sisters did as well. What the, what is
[00:52:14] Randall Jacobs (host): sometimes when I wasn't doing the route that I was supposed to, what was it called?
The Wal News Tribune. Oh,
[00:52:19] Joe Concra: I love that. I just heard that a nonprofit bought 11 out of the 12 independent newspapers in Maine yesterday to keep them alive. That's pretty
[00:52:28] Randall Jacobs (host): cool. That's much better than Sinclair or some other conglomerate
[00:52:31] Joe Concra: right. So there's now 11 of the 12 newspapers in Maine will survive as a not for pro anyway.
I, I digress. Throwing newspapers and then, um, uh, you know, remember the, the mo there was a movie Breaking Away. Yeah. Right. And as an Italian American that kid's singing in Italian in the beginning of the movie. And then being a cutter and like being an outcast and not in the, the college, I was always an outcast.
I was totally never comfortable wherever I was, I became a painter, like nobody, whatever. So I discovered bikes really early on, and it just got me out of whatever bad situation I was in. Hmm. And that to me, that was always the escape machine. So even now when I leave my front door, I can go do a 30 mile gravel ride now and never have to hit a road.
And I always feel so much better when I come back, cuz now it's all in my head.
[00:53:22] Randall Jacobs (host): Unfortunately at this point, the software we were using, having to cut out. So while the conversation continued for quite some time, we don't have the rest to share with you. However, if you'd like to join us at the O positive festival, whether for the rides or the festival itself, you can visit opositivefestival.org or reach out to Joe or myself in the ridership. So with that, I hope you've enjoyed the episode
and as another dear friend of mine likes to say.
Here's to finding some dirt. Under your wheels.